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Post by Memphremagog on Feb 4, 2004 2:07:20 GMT -5
Most are unaware that the ancient Hebrews and their neighbors held to a belief in vampires and similar creatures. The drinking or "eating" of blood was abhorred by the Hebrews. But there may actually be a passing reference to the vampire in the Book of Proverbs. In Proverbs 30:14 throuth 16 we read the following: "There is a generation whose teeth are as swords, and their jaw teeth as knives, to devour the poor from off the earth, and the needy from among men. The horseleach hath two daughters, crying Give, give. There are three things which are never satisfied, yea, four things say not, It is enough: the grave; and the barren womb; the earth that is not filled with water, and the fire that saith not, It is enough." (King James Version of 1611) Other versions, such as the 1609 Douay text, are practically identical. The Greek Septuagint, of Hellenistic Egyptian origin, completely lacks these passages. In St. Jerome's Vulgate we read the first line of verse 15: "sanguisugae duae sunt filiae dicentes adfer adfer". Here we see "sanguisugae" or "blood sucker" as the Latin equivalent of leech or horseleech. But the Hebrew original has it as ALOOKAH. The precise origin of this word is uncertain but it is probably from a Semitic language kindred to Hebrew, such as Syriac (Assyrian), Aramaic, or Arabic. The verses in question are attributed to a man named Agar, presumably of Arabic origin. Though most of the Proverbs have been traditionally attributed to King David, a few, including these are otherwise credited to someone else. If Agar is an Arabic name, then ALOOKAH would be from that language or a cognate language. Some scholars claim that a horseleech having daughters just does not make sense. They point out the belief by the ancient Semites in vampires as a more logical and sensible interpretation. They believe verse 15 should read: "The vampire has two daughters . . ." It really doesn't matter what modern Biblical scholars think. What does matter is that the ancient Semites (Hebrews included) DID believe in the existence of vampires. It matters not whether one believes in their existence either; it doesn't even matter if vampires exist at all as far as understanding this verse is concerned. In Langenscheidt's Pocket Hebrew-English Dictionary to the Old Teatament by Dr. Karl Feyerabend (Barnes & Noble, Inc., New York, 1961) we see for 'alukah' "BLOOD-SUCKING MONSTER, LEECH, VAMPIRE". While it is decidedly a minority opinion among theologians today that this verse mentions a vampire, it does seem to make the most sense when considering that the alternative, of a literal leech having two daughters who are craving more. Furthermore, the verse immediately preceeding it, with references to a generation of men with swords for teeth, make more sense as well when applied to verse 15. The ancient Arabic word 'alik' can mean either flesh eating ghoul or blood drinking monster. With these thoughts in mind no wonder the Jews of old were confused when Jesus said in the sixth chapter of the Gospel of John that His Flesh is real food and His Blood is real drink, and that those who partake of His Flesh and Blood have eternal life. It is very likely that SOME of the Jews of the first century might have misunderstood the Christian Church as a vampire cult, even though there was nothing as arcane or hidden in the Christian Eucharist as happened at Eleusis, for example. In conclusion I would like to know the Vampirologist's opinion on these verses as well as anyone else who would like to comment or take issue with this interpretation. PAX. Memphremagog
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john
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Post by john on Apr 21, 2004 11:09:02 GMT -5
dear memphremagog,thats quite a name,sounds welsh!i am a newcomer as from today.ive been reading thru your messages and just wanted to say they make very good reading,also it sounds that you have a strong christian faith which is paramount when making a study of any of these dark subjects.good for you!sincerely,john.
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Post by Vampirologist on Apr 22, 2004 4:20:47 GMT -5
"You have a strong Christian faith which is paramount when making a study of any of these dark subjects."
Do you study these subjects, John?
And, if so, do you have a strong Christian faith?
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Post by Memphremagog on Apr 24, 2004 10:50:18 GMT -5
Good morning John. Memphremagog is the name of a very deep glacial lake that borders on New York state and Quebec. I live in Minnesota. The lake is said to be inhabited by a sea-serpent which the locals call Memphre. On the Quebec shore is a settlement known as Magog (shades of the Apocalypse). Hence the name. Yes, I would like to believe that my faith is strong, although I hope it will grow stronger! Every day I say to my Lord "Jesus, I love you, I pray that by the end of this day that I will have grown to love you more." Concerning my interest in the occult and demonic realm - It is a treacherous path to follow - as I am sure Sean Manchester will tell you. While studies of this type are interesting, fun, and enlightening, it can also be very dangerous to your soul. Demonology (the proper study of demons) must NEVER be allowed to become Demonolatry (the actual worship of demons). This may have been the problem with Aleister Crowley who became so enamoured of the occult that he became a full-blown Satanist. It was probably the reason behind the falling-out between Crowley and Montague Summers, who as youths were friends but who later became the bitterest enemies. Study demonology and vampirology if you want, but PLEASE be careful, don't let it carry you away into hell. Always study these things with a deeply prayerful attitude, admitting that Jesus Christ is our Saviour and Judge. Finally, never forget that while Jesus loves you; Satan and Lucifer, on the other hand, hate you. Peace in Christ to you all, Memphremagog.
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Post by Vampirologist on Apr 25, 2004 5:22:49 GMT -5
I raised the question with John because the word "pagan" is unavoidable in his email address.
Seldom are words used unintentionally or without reason; though I am also aware that occasionally they might be employed inappropriately.
John has not cleared up the apparent anomaly between "pagan" in his address and his advising on this board a "strong Christian faith" to those making "any study of these dark subjects."
That said, I do not cast any apsersion.
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john
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Post by john on Apr 25, 2004 9:45:27 GMT -5
dear vampirologist ,just to put your mind at rest,my user name is john because its my real middle name,and pagan 5 in my email adress is also easy for me to remember as my surname is payne which i am told is old norman french for pagan or rustic villager,i assure you im neither pagan nor villager,i am a christian and i live in the city of rochester,kent,england.i chose the no.5 as i was born on 5th may.im sure you may be wary of new members,but feel free to ask me anything you want.ill even give you my name adress and phone number if you need it.yours most sincerely,k.j.payne. (john).
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john
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Post by john on Apr 25, 2004 10:16:47 GMT -5
dear memphremagog,hope you are well,its a nice surprise to recieve an email all the way from minnesota.has anyone ever photographed memphre?.i agree with you my friend that one should have firm foundations in the christian faith even before making any studies of the enemy.i too accept jesus as my lord and saviour.by the way,im from rochester,kent,england.quite a historic place,its also charles thingyens country,in fact he lived half a mile from me,if you want any info on the history of rochester or its ghosts,ill email it for all members to read.god bless,john
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Post by Vampirologist on Apr 25, 2004 12:01:36 GMT -5
Is that the Victorian Charles Thingyens of "A Christmas Carole" fame? It is interesting to note that you are born on May 5th, John, because that date is very significant in the novel "Carmel." Indeed, it is the birthday of the central character. Have you read it? www.gothicpress.freeserve.co.uk/Carmel.htm
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john
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Post by john on Apr 25, 2004 13:27:12 GMT -5
dearvamp,youre a suspicious fellow!! only joking! yes charles thingyens of christmas carol &oliver twist fame.unfortunately ive not yet read carmel.interesting coincedence about may 5th.you may also find it strange that my mothers name is mina,and ive a niece called lucy,but none of us hail from the old country! is it still possible to purchase a copy of the highgate vampire signed by bishop manchester from gothic press? id be obliged if you could let me know when you can.cheers,john.
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Post by Memphremagog on Apr 25, 2004 18:13:48 GMT -5
I would never have guessed that the entry on Proverbs would have generated such a flurry of responses! To John first of all - yes I would appreciate any information on ghosts, goblins, sprites, ghoulies, vampires, spooks, werewolves, imps, wraiths, dragons, or what have you. You may send them to the website if you choose. Are we permitted to give out our real names and e-mail addresses on this site? I was under the impression that we were expected to refrain from that! My real name is not Memphremagog! It is David Allen Gabriel ( I will tell you of my surname later if that is permissable). It must be a joy to live within a couple of miles (oops I mean kilometres) of so much history! That is the great thing about Europe and especially England, so much history right next door! In Minnesota we demolish anything and everything over 30 years old. The oldest structures here are some farm houses built in the late 1800's (I grew up in a house built as recently as 1871, yesterday compared to Britain and Europe. Yes, there are a few indistinct photos of Memphre available on www.magogquebec.homestead.com (I'm not sure if there is a dot (.) between quebec and homestead). What I would really appreciate (from either John or Vampirologist ([or anyone!!!]) are some thoughts on the Vampire in Proverbs! Vampires are portrayed on Babylonian and Assyrian cylinder seals, with an exorcist holding a stake over the suspected vampire. I would like to know if there are any legends or myths outside of Summers' works that deal with vampirism in antiquity, especially in the Levant. I know it may disturb many people (Jews and Christians especially) that a vampire might be the subject of Proverbs 30:15, but so what! Nothing is compromised theologically if it is! In fact that should deepen the reverence one should have toward God and His Church! All things glorify God in some way, whether they belive it or not, whether they like it or not, and whether they know it or not! What I mean is that even in evil things like vampires, God is glorified in such a manner that He is elevated to a greater glory in the sense that vampires are His opposite, God is glorified in the positive sense (as always) by the horrific negative nature of the vampire! In being the opposite of Christ (i.e. Anti-Christ) the vampire 's d**nation itself brings glory to God and His Son Jesus Christ. Anyway, I trust I make myself obscure to some and rambling to others. May Jesus Christ be with you, Memphremagog.
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Post by Vampirologist on Apr 26, 2004 4:23:19 GMT -5
Though not recommended, it is permissable to identify your own name and email address. It also permissable to identify the names of public figures. However, where an individual is clearly antipathetic to the sentiments expressed on this board, it is wise not to provide their full name. Either a description or just the surname will suffice. Technically they can have threads where their full names appear deleted as it violates the code of conduct. John did not hide his email address on his profile, otherwise I would not have revealed the "pagan" portion of the name he uses. One learns to become careful, perhaps even "suspicious," over the years. The signed hardcover edition of "The Highgate Vampire" remains available and can be obtained either directly from Gothic Press, or from most online bookshops, eg Campusi: www.campusi.com/author_Sean_Manchester.htmShould a personal dedication (plus signature) be required, this can only be obtained through the publisher: www.gothicpress.freeserve.co.uk/Highgate%20Vampire%20Book.htm
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john
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Post by john on Apr 28, 2004 9:21:35 GMT -5
dear vampirologist,thanks a lot for the info on bishop manchesters book,thats great!.id be very interested to know what my password meant,is it just a name,or does it actually mean something?.i agree its probably safer to leave your personal history where its safe,although,my friend whos an antiques dealer gets a bit paranoid on this subject,as hes worried he one day might end up talking to a psycho or something without realising.i personally think thats going over the top.and i doubt any of us will end up talking to a real vampire on the internet!
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Post by Vampirologist on Apr 29, 2004 5:14:41 GMT -5
Demons, vampires included, are much more real and much closer than the masquerading vampiroids of cyber-space who range from being psychotic to marginally deluded yet are no more a vampire than they are visitor from another planet. And doubtless there are a fair number of those claimants too!
What always makes me smile is how some people reject the existence of real vampires out of hand, while at the same time fully embracing a belief in alien abductions etc.
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Post by Memphremagog on Apr 29, 2004 9:53:16 GMT -5
Dear Vampirologist: Thank you for your response! There are a multitude of mysterious entities in the Bible such as the nephilim (are they the children of fallen angels who mated with the daughters of men or are they themselves the ones who mated with the daughters of men? Who can say for sure! Perhaps this is how the plethora of weird preternatural creatures entered human folklore and history. Could banshees, vampires, leprechauns, trolls, satyrs, nymphs, silkies, werewolves, et cetera, merely have originated (in fact or fantasy) from legends of the nephilim? Furthermore, the ancient Sumerian tales of the Annunaki bear a striking resemblance to the nephilim! By the way, I am not expecting a real answer to the questions posed in this entry. These questions are only hypothetical at best, mostly me just thinking outloud and submitting these thoughts here. About extraterrestrials - it doesn't matter theological speaking if they exist or not. Many conservative Christians absolutely insist that they do not exist, others believe they do. What matters is this: God made a covenant with Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, and David, and this was fulfilled in Christ. The mission of Christ was to redeem humanity from eternal hell. The point being that Christ was a HUMAN, an EARTHLING, not a Martian or whatever. The mission of salvation was to US, HUMAN BEINGS created in the image of God. Should God have dealing with ETs (providing they exist) that should not matter to us, we know that God loved us enough to send His Son Jesus to redeem us. Who cares if there are ETs or not! God will protect us from them if we follow Him, if we don't, and they are malevolent, then we have ourselves to blame. Peace in Christ, Memphremagog.
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john
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Post by john on Apr 29, 2004 11:29:00 GMT -5
dear vampirologist,i dont really know what vampiroids from cyberspace are,would that be someones title for an egg shaped headed alien? if so i have a true close encounter for you,involving my father and the rev.j.field a friend of ours and one time neighbour,which took place about a mile from my home,just outside the village of wouldham,kent.a place re-knowned for all kinds of supernatural activities,occult practices,and ufo sightings,it is also steeped in history,& alot of roman finds have been unearthed there,including,i believe an underground temple to mithras many years ago.have you had an encounter with a vampire yourself? i ask because i am new to this board,and apart from writing to prof.chris frayling on the subject,who you may remember did a series on tv a few years ago which included him travelling to transylvania in search of vampires,ive not had the oppertunity to discuss the real thing with anyone else of note.regards,john.
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